Report 856
Report #856 Skillset: Skill: Skillflex Org: Serenguard Status: Completed Jul 2013 Furies' Decision: We would love to implement this, but at the moment it is not feasible. We will aim to allow this during the combat overhaul. In the mean time, if there are specific defences which are too OP to remain on skillflexing, the Serenguard Envoy may message Iosai one (1) complete list and she will make sure they are cleared as part of this report. Problem: Currently, if you skillflex from one skill to another, you still keep the defenses of the previous skillset. This creates balance problems in certain classes as it results in people carrying around benefits from some tertiaries and lessening the weaknesses of the other ones. For example, a Serenguard warrior could go Moon, drawdown, then switch to tracking and still have all the DMP moon provides and never face the designed drawback of tracking having lower DMP amounts. There are other examples, and in many cases it's been found to be somewhat overpowered. This report seeks to fix this issue once and for all. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: When switching out from a skillset, remove all defenses associated with it or make them dormant so that they only take effect when switching back. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: In addition to solution 1, raise the skillflex point limit to 100 per hour. Player Comments: ---on 6/27 @ 05:02 writes: Solution 1, I don't think we need to increase lessons to flex at this time ---on 6/27 @ 05:09 writes: I still think that defenses which are meant to be shared (see: astrology spheres, paradigmatics reimagine, and other like-skills) should not be removed upon skillflex. I support solutions 1 and 2, and would prefer affected defenses go dormant for solution 1 instead of being completely removed. ---on 6/27 @ 05:29 writes: Solution 1 supported! But, if it is all possible without it taking too much coding, certain temporary defenses should not be removed, as Nihta mentioned. ---on 6/27 @ 05:31 writes: Solution 1. ---on 6/27 @ 15:14 writes: Fully supported. ---on 6/27 @ 21:10 writes: I have concerns about this, as I feel it impacts Commune knights the most. Skillflex is the only way thus far I have found to enable Crow to be at all competitive with Night (utilizing one of Night's signature abilities, Nightkiss). It is extremely unfortunate that such is the case, and I would far prefer that Crow (and Stag) were able to stand on their own as complete skillsets. Over the years we have tried many ways to close the gap- what Crow (and Stag) need are a true "signature ability," something which Crowform & Stagform just do not provide. We have attempted things such as DMP, +damage, and have discussed +criticals (the first two were turned down, the latter we were told would not be accepted). We are quite able to do minor adjustments here and there, but... those minor adjustments will always be outshone by Night/Moon on both offensive and defensive terms. These skillsets need some oomph. To that end, I would appreciate something worked out with the Administration if this report is accepted in which they will sit down and talk with the Crow / Stag envoys. We do not really need a "special report", as the issue is not one spread across many skillsets, but we do need a path which we can traverse moving forward. ---on 6/27 @ 21:14 writes: Pardon: The issue is not one spread across many skills within the skillsets (but instead entirely down to how the signature abilities shape the end result). ---on 6/27 @ 22:46 writes: I'd like to point out that every class deals with tertiaries that are not considered equal or competitive but they don't always have the option to make them competitive by using skillflex. This isn't a disparity that is unique to Crow and Stag, so if a discussion about Crow and Stag is allowed, then other discussions should also be opened, such as Psionics vs Runes/Dreamweaving and the various other tertiary disparities that exist. Treat them all this way, or none of them. ---on 6/27 @ 23:47 writes: Which of these other skillset combinations are able to be brought into balance with skillflex? Those other defenses go away when the user dies, meaning any such thing is temporary at best. This is a unique scenario pretty much solely limited to these skillsets, You are not able to make Runes balanced with Psionics by flexing Psionics away. You are not able to do it with Dreamweaving either, so I just don't see that point as being valid. ---on 6/27 @ 23:49 writes: There is a clear disparity between the skillsets, because Crow / Stag -do not have- a niche. Night and Moon are more effective at offense, at defense, and also provide a great deal of benefit in utility purposes (as you yourself have pointed out). There exists a way to balance them, and this report seeks to remove that. It is not too much to ask for a discussion in return. ---on 6/30 @ 16:17 writes: As I said before, this report is seperate from whatever disparities there may be between Crow\Stag and Night\Moon. There is no reason to have a special 'brainstorming session' because this report goes through. You've stated that you agree this change is good for the game. Tertiaries are not all balanced and equal, Crow/Night are no different and thusly do not deserve any special recognition beyond what is within your power as an envoy to already do. Fully support solution 1. ---on 7/1 @ 22:23 writes: And as I said before, it is not separate. This change specifically takes something away. It's plain as day- the report directly impacts this and I want that considered. Period. We can keep arguing back and forth for comment and comment saying that if you want, but the end result will be the same- you will be against it, and I will get to keep stressing how important I feel it is that it be at least thought about as part of the report's effects. ---on 7/2 @ 03:13 writes: Yes, you feel it's important because it directly affects you and you are jumping on your soapbox to say so. Turns out that your tertiaries are the same as everyone elses, not equal. Deal with it through channels available to you, whether it's discussions with other envoys, more reports or what have you. Despite your assertations, you have the ability to make changes as an envoy. You have agreed this change is good for the game as a whole, whether or not you get this discussion you feel so entitled too. Leave it at that. Voice your support and continue to brainstorm about what you can do with Crow via the other channels available. This will be the last I say on this subject, though I'm sure you'll reply. ---on 7/2 @ 21:11 writes: No. This is the appropriate place to voice my concerns, on the report which causes those concerns. They are tied together part and parcel, and no amount of sticking your fingers in your ears and denying that fact is going to change my mind here. I want this considered as part of this report, and all you're doing is ensuring that those who read it are going to be pondering it and the ramifications thereof (simply because there are more and more comments doing exactly that). So, thank you! ---on 7/2 @ 21:18 writes: PS: I do not feel that this is an across-the-board "good change" (or I would not be stressing this point so hard). In this one case, I do feel very strongly it is a bad change. ---on 7/2 @ 22:00 writes: I see that the second version of this report still managed to get 15+ comments over an argument that I feel is best suited on another report that specifically deals with Crow/Hart. I feel that from a balance perspective, it is much easier to balance/upgrade/nerf skills when you don't have to take into account external factors available to a small subset of people. This report (in my opinion) simply further reflects this balancing perspective. Similar to the snoefaasia downgrade, I feel that 'unnaturally powerful external buffs' should be more or less removed from the game. This is so we have less factors to take into account, namely, class skills only. ---on 7/2 @ 22:03 writes: And by class skills only, I mean class skills within your own specific specialization only. Solution 1 is good. ---on 7/3 @ 02:11 writes: Solution 1 supported as long as the chemantic/wood defenses continue to go dormant when you skillflex due to their high commodity costs. ---on 7/7 @ 01:56 writes: What's interesting about this is it's being proposed by the serenguard and opposed by the ebonguard envoy. Serenguard have much more to lose from this change than ebonguard do. As it stands now a runed out serenguard is able to have drawdown and swiftstripes up. Meaning an aslaran (the most common min/max warrior race) can have level 3 balance, no eq malus, and the best possible weapon stats. From what I can see ebonguard just get +dex from trying to abuse flex. Let's take away the ability for people to access all of their toys at once so we can give more toys to Crow and Stag (who need them), as it stands now I wouldn't be okay with much of a buff to either knowing that the top warriors of the guilds would have access to them and drawdown/nightkiss. ---on 7/7 @ 16:20 writes: I'm not really sure what you're going for there, Wobou- Crow Ebonguard currently get access to 24 dmp by utilizing Flex, which is the primary thing it will lose with this change. And, again, my issue is not the change in general, but one specific result of it that I would like to see discussed and addressed (because no, obviously Crow / Stag are not going to get a significant upgrade now- but even pre-skillflex it was extraordinarily difficult to come up with something which was "new" and "novel" and strong enough to make a difference). ---on 7/8 @ 04:44 writes: I'm just saying their combination is stronger. I understand what you're saying about attempts to buff crow/stag pre skillflex but I think given the ideas we were able to come up with (for crow at least) in a short period of time that it's worth giving another shot. As it is now anything that would buff crow/stag enough to be equivalent to nightkiss/drawdown would make the combination massively OP. Basically I think if you ever actually want to fix Crow to any extent you'll need to lose this. Also what is your justification for being able to use skillflex better than most other archetypes? My understanding is if I were to skillflex from psymet to acrobatics I would lose my psymet locked defenses, why should I lose those if you get to keep nightkiss? ---on 7/18 @ 17:54 writes: Solution 1. This is not a good solution to skill imbalance. As with trade skills we should only be using the skills we have active. ---on 7/28 @ 17:06 writes: Solution 1 ---on 7/30 @ 23:35 writes: If this is done there shouldn't be any exemptions. But also people should be able to return their artifacts since Estarra publicly posted this is a perk of skillflexing. ---on 7/31 @ 00:21 writes: Http://www.lusternia.com/node/28732?page=3#comment-760116 ---on 7/31 @ 00:22 writes: I don't want to overstate anything so I found what was said and am quoting it here. The link is above the quote below this comment ---on 7/31 @ 00:23 writes: QUOTE (Turnus @ Jul 19 2010, 11:33 AM) What about using the cord to skill flex picking up defenses (a tracker with drawdown/nightkiss for instance). Feature or going to be changed? ----------REPLY from Estarra-----------Feature unless we find it throws things way out of balance. Personally, I think it's just a small benefit rather than a game-changing one. ---on 7/31 @ 15:54 writes: I do see that Estarra mentioned it was a feature as long as it was considered balanced. I don't think it really is balanced and the Doctoral Cord still gives tons of benefit (no lesson cost to flexing) that I don't really know if a refund is warranted.